We Need To Talk About This

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85 thoughts on “We Need To Talk About This

  1. Alec Torelli gets himself into even MORE trouble on Poker Night In America. This time against Jennifer Tilly. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdvOmO2pj_4

  2. Maybe Howard Lederer's name as well as other owners of Full Tilt will come up in the newly released "Paradise papers" from the Appleby law firm in the Bahamas. A lot of people who have been hiding money from the government have just been exposed. Just saying…..

  3. What's even worse than them robbing is the fact they have no shame. Phil made millions from a crooked online site so he relates.

  4. With all due respect nothing new in the honorable poker world lol. Reminds me of captain Tom Franklin kicking off the 2011 or 2012 WSOP as if he didn't rob a young gal of her entire bankroll causing her to commit suicide a few years earlier!!!

  5. Look. Listen. I know that this whole things seems to be some HUGE deal in the poker community and, yes, it is the BIGGEST deal to ever hit poker. That being said, let's focus our energy on things that are far more important like world peace, less asshats, corruption, bigotry and pure fucktards that are dominant in our culture right now. Poker is great, and losing money sucks. What sucks even worse is the humanitarian injustices that are a constant and prevelant. It starts with self-realization.

  6. i really think you're out of line here. CF, like several other pros at that time, got caught in over their heads in a business situation they were unprepared for. He did his best to make amends and is STILL a legend in the poker world 🌎 . I think you should give him a break of the benefit of the doubt and move on.

  7. Wasn't Helmuth at one time associated with a poker site that was caught out cheating? Guess that's why he's cool with Ferguson, as they probably laugh and joke about cunting over the poker community….whole thing smells rank

  8. Always love your content Doug, intelligent analysis, good objectivity – this one though I would caution not to confuse "innocent until proven guilty" with someone actually being innocent. The inability to prosecute based on a lack of evidence or legal loopholes / technicalities does NOT make you innocent – just means the law has to TREAT you as though you are – cuz we can't prosecute you and therefore can't prove you guilty – at least not to the satisfaction of the law.

    For example – despite the video evidence and expert analysis I doubt you could get a conviction on Torelli for angle-shooting (were that a crime) – so legally he has to be treated as innocent (we can't incarcerate him) – but that doesn't mean we don't all KNOW he's a scummy lil weasel and guilty af does it? #TorelliGTFO

  9. I personally don't think Ferguson had much, if anything, to do with how the money was handled. I think he had more to do with the running of his software company that supplied the code base for their platform – because he was a programmer by trade. As to the Hellmuth picture… you guys have to realize, they have likely been friends for decades.

  10. I hope Ferguson banner gets it good by the players. That guy is total garbage and should never be allowed to enter any wsop event to start with never mind a Banner in his honour. It’s like a pedophile not going to jail and receiving the Babysitter award of the year.

  11. That Banner will be attacked and vandalized I guarantee it. And Ferguson will realize how truly disliked and unwelcome he is within the Poker community. (The idiot should already know that)

  12. So a few things here.. Ferguson didn't say shit and disappeared for yrs b4 returning to play live. That lack of response created a lot of animosity in the court of public opinion, hence the negative reactions to his re-emergence. 2nd, Hellmuth's decision to post that pic is the same as his cash game.. Fuckin horrible. All that said, Anyone who cashes 20+ times in a season and gets more jewelry DESERVES the award bc he is playing better than the rest of us. We need to suck it up n play better. IMO Ray Bitar, Lederer, and Jesus Fergie are all useless douchebags and a black eye on the face of professional poker. Thus endeth the sermon

  13. I didn't have money on FT, but player of the year (no matter what formula they use) has to be earned. I mean it's not like they have him GQ magazine man of the year or anything… I actually give him mad props. Him EARNING POY is like the ultimate troll. I can appreciate a troll on that scale

  14. Legalities aside, his company absolutely ass-blasted the community..has he even apologized? If the law can't acheive an satisfactory outcome the community should still have a say in his capacity to re-involve himself in it. The community and WSOP/E coordinators should have stood up and kicked that shmuck and his buy-in to the curb.

  15. Hi Doug, new viewer as of about a month ago, really enjoying your content. I took a look at Upswing, and I was wondering if you could make a recommendation of where to start in terms of buying some of the courses. I’m a 2/5 sometimes 5/10 cash game player in Las Vegas. I do well in 2/5 and am a little out of my depth in 5/10, but can still take it down if I find the right game. Been playing seriously for about 2 years.

    Keep up the good work man. See you on the battlefield.

  16. Hey Doug,

    long time viewer here. I find the opponents/v blogs interesting! and very entertaining.
    You keeping stating Poker star's paid back the lost player funds from Full Tilt.
    We could look at it another way, pokerstars just gave the poker players an loan while charging interest,
    making the company l
    if look good for a while and protecting the company future and possible future of poker-stars achieving the lion share of the market in american.
    (as well as voiding jail time for the founders of the company).

    i really appreciate the time your putting into this project.
    keep it up!

    Kind Regards,

    Craig Daly.

  17. to be fair they were making so much money a month had they not got shut down they wouldn't of had a problem paying people. They just got way too careless.

  18. I think Negreanu is a fckin idiot and a diva. About the other guys, i don't give a damn. But the video was fine and Doug Polk is a legend. Period.

  19. Well if he didn’t have anything to hide he should of at least spoken about it to the public and people who had there money withheld for …..

    In my eyes that’s a sign of a guilty man who knew their was wrong doing with customers money but as he was just a share holder had a perfect excuse to say he knew nothing.

    Guilty 🤔 I think so shouldn’t be allowed to be part of the poker community full stop …

    Will anyone remember him for being a great poker player ??? Or a crook that got away with it ????

    I know what I believe!!!

  20. It's not surprising to me, Phil got a free pass on his (somewhat unclear) involvement in the Ultimate bet scam, so he's giving a free pass to Chris. All casino around the world, and especially those affiliated with the WSOP, should exercise their right to refuse to deal to him at any poker event, and make it clear they are doing it collectively on behalf of the poker players he likely scammed out of millions.

  21. they were ripping people off and stealing money from Full Tilt customers and never paid them back, yet they paid Ferguson and Lederer something like $10 mil PER YEAR!!!!

  22. I would calmly say "ponzi scheme" of "full tilt thief" every 60 seconds if I were at a table with him. It's dismaying that he is not reminded of what he was involved in at each and every poker table he plays at (not just by one person). Yeah Hellmuth's tweet was bad but silence is also extremely ineffective.

  23. there's probably no solid proof to make a case against him. the guy's a good swindler, plain and simple; a true cyber cowboy in response to the los angelino wearing a cowboy hat reference. but he's one of the greatest players of all time as evidenced by his continual dominance before and even after the FTP scandal. i believe he has a right to play, just as all the murderers and drug dealers did in the texas home games that brunson and company toured in the 60s.

  24. I will never play online poker again, at least not in it’s current state. One minute, a fast and fun way to play the game for cash, completely safe and fair……and the next minute, they are stealing money, ALL of the various site’s systems were compromised and cheating people.

    Cheat me once….shame on you, cheat me twice….

    This could have gone on for years and years. Fortunately, the people behind the scam got greedy, tipping off some smart people, that they were cheating. Had they only slightly given themselves an advantage, it would have been unnoticed.

    Lost all respect for Furgeson & Lederer. Their claims that they didn’t know…..maybe? Then why not come out publicly and immediately, saying “This is completely unacceptable, and we are ashamed about what has been going on. I am removing my name from Full Tilt until all players are compensated for their losses.”

    It would have been that easy. Instead, they claim gag order, and hide out for years. Fuck them.

  25. Chris Ferguson is a piece of shit!! he stole millions from his customers and now he is rewarded!! and the other scum bag Howard Lederman, they both should be in prison.

  26. Thank you for making this video. You are as much a voice as any of the poker community and making this video like fulfills your responsibility to not let him back in, it also happens to be super entertaining of a video like most of yours but fuck him is the point

  27. It seems odd that a person like Ferguson can be a complicit part of an outfit that has damaged the poker community so such a degree, can still be celebrated and rewarded by continuing to be a part of that same community. There's something NOT right about that, in my opinion.

  28. Wll then what about Phil Ivey? Court docs reveal he was getting paid $920k a month. Don't you think they let him off the hook?

  29. If you beast the game, you should get recognition. If you steal a lot of peoples money, you should get a lot of money.

  30. I find it usefull to get all the facts, and open your mouth afterwards, instead of knowing half the facts, guessing and speculating while [s]damaging[/s] ruining some one's reputation.

  31. I was an over-the-top hooked poker player back in the day.
    When I wasn't playing it, I was watching it on TV or at FT or Stars. All the big TV shows. All the big TV and online tourneys.
    I watched all the Poker After Dark episodes and the re-runs of them on Youtube.
    I was probably only an average player but it wasn't for lack of trying. I've never in my life tried harder to be successful at something. Which is odd because in other areas of my life, I would succeed and barely tried.
    I could hold my own, but never broke through as a poker success financially.
    When Black Friday happened, I had so much other distraction in my life that I never really caught the wave. I missed a lot of the news that broke during that time. I read a few articles online, and caught some of the network news story's. But that's it. I hated that poker was in trouble and getting a big black-eye, but I didn't really know much about exactly why.
    So when I see videos like this one and a few others, I get a mixed bag of feelings about this aftermath of backlashes.
    First of all, I try not to judge. That's just the way I am and unless there is undisputed evidence that something bad-amiss-underhanded-sneaky is up? …I try to keep assumptions, guesses, and judgements to a minimum. Even if I really feel a certain way about something (like this FT Poker situation), I try to keep assumptions to myself.
    Since none of us are privy to the transcripts of the DOJ interviews with Ferguson or anyone else, none of us actually know the true extent of the rot at FT Poker and who was responsible. …assuming of course that the DOJ was satisfied that the truth came out of those discussions.
    The DOJ are bulldogs. Just ask the politicians and wall street elite that they have investigated over the years. They know how to follow a money trail and they understand how to dig for information. They are relentless.
    Do I feel that Old Howard and Chris are "responsible" for what happened at FT? Yes I do. For reasons of professional or positional responsibility alone, they do own a stake in all the ugliness. They MUST…because their positions are not even in question. They were co-owners and on the board. That's fact.
    However, the extent of that responsibility… short of any criminal findings by the DOJ should be contained within the legal parameters of what constitutes "positional responsibility".
    In other words, can someone who just blundered through their job be held to have criminal intent simply because of the criminal actions of another individual? I think the answer is no.
    I also believe that is exactly the answer that the DOJ came up with as well.
    If specific evidence of criminal complicity (such as text messages, pay records, emails, conversations, money transfers, business documents, interviews with witnesses, or re-construction of key events, and more…) had been found during any part of the long DOJ investigation, there would have been criminal charges filed against that person. Period. ..and such charges generally result in jail time.
    So, I feel that to totally dismiss all the hard work that the DOJ has invested into getting to the bottom of this matter by inferring, implying, suggesting, that some uncharged individual acted below board at FT is misguided at best.
    Are we saying that a few poker players were able to cover their criminal tracks so well that a full on DOJ witch hunt couldn't undo them? Are we saying that the DOJ are a bunch of bumbling half-wits who wouldn't know a lie if it were baked for them?
    Because that's what all of this comes down to. Right?
    We are able to sit back and judge and condemn and convict in a court of opinion, innuendo, assumption, and basically gossip with no regard for the facts of the matter or even the true evidence because in reality we don't even know what that evidence is. Pretty convenient.
    Sorry, but that's bullshit. This is the United States of America, and the line of thinking being taken here by a lot of people is more at home in North Korea.
    I'm not defending Chris or anyone else in this. Hell, he may be guilty as sin…but I do not know that, and I refuse to assume it just because that's the popular thing to do.
    What I am defending here is our process. The law did it's job. I'm good with that. You should be too.
    …and isn't Player of the Year based on points accumulated? If Chris finished the season with the most points, then he earned Player of the Year regardless of who does or doesn't like it. Maybe playing better poker against him would have taken him out of contention but that's not on him. It's on his opposition. Bad on them.
    Anyway, that's how I see it.
    Thanks

  32. not here to apologize or antagonize .. i played a LOT, on FT.. i had money vested.. but, not holding Chris F accountable for the issues on the site.. if he was THAT guilty, i doubt he would be walking around playing poker.. but, as someone ELSE pointed out, he was a SHAREHOLDER, not a CFO, or COO, or CEO… if YOU own stock in a company, your only ability to DO anything, is vote your stock options when you are presented with it.say you are being bought out, you have the right to vote for, or against it. you have the right to vote for, or against expansion, or reduction, etc..
    YOU DO NOT RUN THE ACTUAL BUSINESS…………….you can vote on some of the business decisions that require a vote of shareholders ( anyone who has shares votes.. )
    So. just saying…. his perceived guilt i believe is much higher than any actual guilt.. if he has any real guilt in the first place..
    so still a fan…just my own stance..

  33. Doug I know this is an old video, but I just ran across it today and feel compelled to comment.

    I learned to play texas holdem @ FT poker back in early 2010. If you recall, back then all the top pro's played on that site. Chris Ferguson actually had a play money table, and did several chats with players to offer help and advice.
    Through his advice and other pro's on FT…. I was able to turn nothing into 1200 real. Now I know that's not a lot of money, but why would Chris spend his time to help someone like me, if he was concerned with stealing money from players? It doesn't make any sense.

    I can tell you this…from time to time I would cash out $100-200 from my account. The checks all came from Canada. The last check I got which was only a couple days before Black Friday came from New York.

    Since the money was now in a US account, the USDOJ could now seize it, and of course FT wouldn't have funds to pay players. Black Friday didn't happen because FT was cheating their players, it happened because online gambling is illegal in the US. Though playing 9 person S&G which I did, isn't gambling at all if you understand EV, and the players ranges you are playing against, and their chosen style of play.

    At any rate, Poker Stars was never fined anything or had any money taken away from them whatsoever. Instead the USDOJ "sells" FT to Poker Stars. My belief is that Poker Stars found out FT was using US accounts so their players could get paid faster, and threw them under the bus so they could take over their site. Since when is a company that is operating an "illegal" business in the US, not fined anything, and allowed to take over another site that was guilty of the same thing?

    Back in the day how many well known Pro's played on PS? Daniel N……and now all he does is talk bad about FT, while PS operated in the US illegally just like FT did. But they never suffered any ramifications because they didn't have any money in US banks or businesses. It's like having two people who rob a bank, and one wasn't carrying a gun, so he gets let off and allowed to buy the gun.

    I do know this for a fact. The hand generator for FT poker back then was completely random. I had a base of hundreds of thousands of hands, and all the math was within 1%….60/40….2 to 1…3 to 1…4 to 1 hands…etc.

    Since I cannot play real anymore, I have to play for play chips on FT now. Just today I lost 16 times in a row getting in as a 3 to 1 favorite, and 8 in a row as a 4 to 1 fav. I fully realize variance is a part of the game, but this is nearly mathematically impossible. There is no way PS generator is random.

    I don't know about Lederer, Bitar, or the other prior owners of FT because I never had any personal contact with them. But I just cannot believe after all the hours that Ferguson spent helping me, a total stranger, getting no money at all for doing it, that he is a crook. Crooks don't ever do things to help people for free, even if they know them.

  34. Anyone involved in the conception of full tilt had an idea that it was a money making scheme in the ball park of banking. Phil and Eric in that picture is telling.

  35. Doug, why are you so unaware of what happened? There are documents showing Howard Lederer directed Full Tilt employees to claim player funds were separate and secure. How can he possibly be ignorant? At best, he straight up lied to the poker players. At worst he purposely engaged in a ponzi scheme. I just don't understand why you'd defend that.

  36. I dont want to sound naive because I surely am not a naive person but I have the feeling that chris ferguson is innocent . none of us knows what exactly happened behind the curtains and it is very possible that chris ferguson wasnt even fully aware wtf was going on . it rather seems that in fergusons case there werre maintenance problems rather than bad intentions . he has always seemed like a good person to me tbh . . but you never know of course . either way even if the apology is late at least he is apologizing unlike the other guys from full tilt

  37. This is all a big joke. In a situation like that where fellow poker players got fucked, how the hell can those 2 mopes have no comment. Even Ivey should have piped up. It's no wonder that other stooge Hellmuth was posing with Cowboy Turdball. Wasn't he the big house pro on one of those sites where that fat pig former main event champ knew the hole cards. And oh yea Poker Stars saved the day. Fuck that shit, once they were the only big site they went from handing out Porsces to chests with 50 cents in them. My fellow Canadian Negreanu then wants to explain how good that was for everyone. I truly believe the brain trust at Full Tilt and Poker Stars knew the dead money was drying up and the greed kicked in. You can watch fist fucking on the internet but the Americans can't play on Stars. We trusted our beloved game with a bunch of cocksuckers and this is what they did to it. And please no more of this none of them did anything wrong BS. If it smells like shit, looks like shit, and likely tastes like shit then it's a 100% turdball in a fucking stetson. I played poker professionally for 15 years and 90% of pros are just scraping by. Then you get these idols from the stone age trying to figure out how to get their next 10 million, they couldn't win it playing so they went the turdball route.

  38. Player of the year by all means… Facts prove he beat even Chris Moneymaker by investing $40 less than him.

  39. They're all scumbags, the old guard. Its the way poker was in their era. Ferguson is a remarkable player unlike lederer, but hes still a scumbag.

  40. One of the best explanations yet, 👍.
    @ least they weren't being run out of an "Indian casino ", where they get to look at your 'whole cards !😂

  41. In my limited knowledge, although you are correct he should have made sure of some things – or at least asked to be informed – as he had such a large stake in FT, I don't think he had any knowledge of what was going on and I don't think he kept any monies that wasn't his.
    He's generally known as a decent guy (isn't he? Not like I know) and think FT dirtied his name just by being associated, not by any wrongdoing of himself.
    Again, his only fault is not making sure things were up and up because he was such a large holder.
    Are we mad at every Pro involved with FT?
    I'm not. Only one really…And the other non-pro execs.

    Too bad as FT was really a great platform imo…

  42. Howard Lederer can say "I don't know/remember" til the end of time. However, I can assure you, there is NOTHING he does not know or remember regarding Full Tilt!

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